sedan told us that we are in a fight for our liberty. we hope you have a very happy thanksgiving. good night from new york. tom: thank you for nothing. on this thanksgiving week, unions refusing to give anything up? welcome, i am charles payne in for neil cavuto. two dozen employee unions begging congresso spare them on any deaof the fiscal cliff. this on top of unions everywhere flexing their muscles. airports, retail stores, hospitals. it's time to say this gravy train is over. dave, when you have?

reporter: all the excesses of government and the phony rules and regulations and useless rules, these unions thre on that. the postal employees union is extraordinary. federal and postal employees are struggling during these hard times. no other group has been asked to financially contribute in the way that they have. we know that they are making twice as much of a comparable job and the private workforce. >> there is no gravy train left. america it is not in the 50s anymore. companies along the lines of this, they can't handle the higher pay rate. there is no future for private

and public jobs growing in the sector. charles: in the private sector it is all about this. if they had a really from the white house and national labor relations board. it seems like a favorable media right now. they are on the attack. i don't know if this will backfire or not. holding up traffic at lax and those kinds of places, it might backfire, but we think? >> you hit the nail on the head that this is a favorable white house. one in five americans in the union household, i get it, they don't want their benefits package flash or whatever. isn't obama the one that is talking about shared sacrifice? it could be we just don't have the money inhe end. the taxpayers employ public employees. we should have a say on what their benefits packages are.

>> the average ivil servants earned 123,000 mis in 2009. but we are talking about is telling the workers tt if you work at the fod area at wal-mart when it's time to join us. this is the perfect atmosphere for them to make this move. >> the fact is that american workers in the private sector are underpaid. we have been losing the value of the currency compared to the past for five years. charles: you just said that the union guys make a lot of money. >> the federal employees.

i took the stats and look at how much we're getting for the guys that work at the post office. what's to stop people from saying yes, why not? >> ultimately, there is only a few occupations that can afford the weight of that salary anymore. >> those are the companies that can afford the extra bonus package. they can't handle these pay packages anymore. it is doomed to fail. >> i don't disagree with david or jonas with respect to the economic aspect. but what i am concerned about is that in this current environment, where the president was reected, forget about the economic aspect, but maybe this is a time ack by the white house, they do force unions to become unionized.

>> eventually, the question becomes, that sounds appealing to have the benefits package. would you prefer that border the job. i think americans still want jobs. that is the most important thing. >> we see that a lot with these local states. in the unns they say we could hire for more rookie cops or pay a senior guy a big package. and we actually see this across the board. maybe this is the way that the private sector fights back. are you a little bit concerned? forget about numbercrunching. a lot of people out there dumb. by now from our country is based on something different. the notion of what is right and wrong. >> that is a luxury that you don't have it was right or wrong. a lot of these unions are calling for his bankrupting the company that they are hoping to

get benefits for. >> you want to talk about fair, is it fair for that leachate to have the big benefits package while three other workers go unemployed because they are giving them the benefit? that's what's not fair. >> wages at our eli level have been stagnant or declining. there has been no better time to want the temptation of the union membership. workers want these extra pay checks. >> there is another aspect, which is that the government, fueled by the human influence with this white house and the white house itself, these rules and regulations, they do respect how companies can behave.

they can't stop you from shutting down. that is impossible to regulate. >> in france they do that, but the government came in and said we are going to come in and take it through. >> we have already seen private sector union members in the last four years. it didn't happen. it's mpossible to stop this, you can't stop it, doesn't matter who's in the white house. >> you know, there was a time that we needed unions, but they argu to help put the auto industry and hostess and twinkies out of business. if we are not on guard, somehow, they have enough powerful friends to force companies io unionization. that's all i'm saying. i'm not sure we should just dismiss this.

>> we need to understand the consequences are if they join the union and they claim that the company can't afford to pay them. >> it could mean the loss of their jobs. >> a job or unions. okay, we will come back with a little bit later. charles: ron paul and why he says this is for the birds. and ahead, toys "r" us. that could bring the business that could bring the business backed down. want to try to crack it? yeah, that's the way to do it! now we need a little bit more... [ male announcer ] at humana, we understand the value of quality time and personal attention. which is why we are proud to partner with health care professionals who understand the difference that quality time with our members can make... that's a very nice cake! ohh! [ giggles ] [ male announcer ] humana thanks the physicians, nurses, hospitals, pharmacists and other health professionals who helped us achieve the highest average star rating

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he won the entitlement explosion is not taking a holiday. 42 million people this thanksgiving, the program eight of 72 billion of taxpayer money. this on top of over-the-top spending on social security and medicare and medicaid. "the wall street journal" says that if washington doesn't deal with this, then we are all in a lot of trouble.

you know, at the fiscal cliff, anxiety raises. i don't think anyone is talking about entitlements. >> actually, going back to what you said about 45 million, i don't know the exact number, when you think about it, that is one out of seven americans. one out of four is having their turkey dinner paid for by taxpayers. what is wrong that people can't afford to put food on the table. it's a tstament to how this economy is. and how much we have created the entitlement mentality that everyone feels they should that they should be on food stamps. when you look at the costs, within about two years, texas at the federal level are going to go just to pay for entitlement programs that have no money left

over to pay for all of the other programs of the government. and i find it very suspicious and interesting as you do that here we ha been talking about this for the last couple of weeks and nobody is talking about reforming these things. >> here is the thing. my idea is let them out there. you have a coupe of years to do damage control. ultimately, if everyone gets their head in the sand in washington, we haven't even talked about the interest on debt the debt that we owe. between that and how do we have an economy? how we grow an economy? that we provide for the kids? >> that's a great point. when i talked about the exploding cost of entitlement, there is something that is the expensive single program. it is hard to reform these programs with the democrats and

unions. the unioion to run as for the first thing they say in a press conference after they met with president obama is we are not going to tolerate any reductions on any of these programs. it makes it very difficult to do anything about reforming them when you have one party that doesn't want to do it. >> so this is a centerpiece of the fiscal cliff on the spending side. it would be up to the republicans to convince the american public that we have to reform these things in order to save these things. to a large degree, we have to be concerned that they are not articulating this to the point where people are saying now. i'm not ready to do it. even though the irony is any sort of reasonable person would suggest one hit anybody older than 40 years old right now. >> what was depressing -- there were a lot of things that were depressing. one of the most impressive things is i don't really think the american people really care that much about the deficit. they certainly didn't vote as if

they did. when it comes to these entitlement programs, no matter what your party is and whether you agree with paul ryan or not, he did put bold initiatives to try to bring these costs down and people rejected it. i thk we took a step back in the last election in terms of fixing the programs. >> having said that, a lot of people say i paid into social security and i deserve that. i don't see how medicaid can hold out. i think that's going to collapse a lot sooner than any economist we be forecast. >> there's a good reason why i agree with you. that may be the fastest entitlement program. here is the reason why. not because it's bankrupting washington, because they have been for 15 years. the reason is because it's bankrupting the state. states pay about 40% of the cost and every governor that i talk to, they say that we can't afford this anymore. it is becoming the top of our budget. i agree with you.

that could be the program that we fix first.

charles: predent obama is in and more people want out. tens of thousands of people are signing petition to secede from the union. we have ron paul on the phone right now. it sounds like you have gotten behind this.

you are the biggest name attached to this so far. why do you think this is a good idea? >> well, i haven't taken the positionthat this is a good idea, but the principle is a good idea. i think it is the secession that we have been clear on the book. i think that principle is very important. i think when you can't lead, it's a very bad thing, as is the absence of freedom. if you can't leave -- if you can leave a jail, you are a prisoner. one thing is when you can't leave your country. that is what i am interested in his people. people being able to leave if they don't like it. jefferson has a great quote on

my secession should be permissible. i don't think it is necessarily that we have a lot of more freedoms. charles: whatis the jeffersojefferso n quote? >> i don't have it right in front of me, but i can see what it is and look it up. charles: we can listen to it next time. why do you think so many people like this idea. why are so many people frustrated with the government in this country? what does it say about the state of america? >> i think the justification is there. that is when a the major crisis hits, when there is no more thing on the entitlement will come. this whole thing falls apart. that is the reason why i think local government and independent government is very important.

he tells you that the people think this thing is a real mass, and they are right about it. i think we are only at the beginning of the unwinding problems that we have building for so many decades. working out of this is going to take a while. charles: representative paul, what was it about mitt romney that -- you didn't get behind him at all, you have a ton of loyal followers, perhaps throwing your weight behind him, you could've won this thing? >> i doubt that. i don't think one person can carry votes. i would have been the one that lost credibility, although i got along quite well on a personal basis with governor romney. we didn't have much of an agreement on policy.

he was not much into civil liberties at all. and he was a strong protectionist and putting on sanctions and acts of war. but all of a sudden, if i vote for him, nobody would've understood that. >> that is one of the reasons you have a loyal following. i do want to ask but it feels like the republican party may be coming to an epiphany that you have a lot of things right, especially in social issues in this country. you think that maybe the gop will be in your direction going forward? let's hope so. i know that they at least have a

more open mind about looking at the federal reserve. maybe the fed is too powerful and they print too much money. and they can do too much unsupervised. yes, i think they will. but i think it won't come quickly. that is why i am so delighted to go to college campuses because the young people seem to have an open mind. i think it usually takes a wild to change the course of the country. they are not going to be doing that. after the recession had come in a major crisis of five years ago,. charles: a lot of people say you predicted this. i do have to ask about expressing interest in running. would he make of it? you are very popular among young people.

a fresh voice a lot of people are looking at come in. are you excited about the prospects? >> it certainly would be excited. it seems like four years is a long way off. the election is over. charles: the election cycle never stops these days. ron paul, i have to tell you that i have learned a lot rom you over the last several years. there is a reason you are a legend. i thank you for taking the time. >> thank you for having me on, charles the one with the economy looking like an ugly doll, a union battle is getting even uglier. we have more coming up next. ♪

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charles: when it comes to stuff that you buy online from the majority of people support and online sales tax. jerry joins us. welcome to the show. >> it's a funny how times change. a decade or so and put you out of business. credible market evaluation, we are a little worried about that. >> not at all. toys "r" us.com, we collect sales tax. so do all of them at this company. what the loophole has been is the only companies that have not been collecting sales tax, it looks like it's imminent.

>> will that be good, that level of the playing field? >> everyone admits, includi companies that there should be a level playing field. it's so interesting because i did talk about the good old days. i don't know that the internet has lived up to the hype, but only now when i look at these earnings reports that the traction that we see, certainly i don't know that it will put brick-and-mortar businesses out. you think that will happen now? is that the inevitable part of retailing? >> i don't view it as one or the other. the model of the future for retail is the only channel model. the superior channel is where you have internet as well. customers want to relate to the brand. at toys "r" us, there are 81 different ways you can do business with us.

you can wear on your cell phone. you can go pick it up in the store. you can fight your home. you can go in the store and just shot the old-fashioned way. we don't care how you do it, customers want to relate to us and want to shop toys "r" us for 20 streets of the internet and brick-and-mortar coming together and making a powerful and exciting thing for consumers to be one i know you don't like this topic, but the idea that the internet is less eco-friendly has been met with a lot of ridicule. what is that all about? >> that's not what i said. i was talking about home delivery and having deliberated on the omni channel future. we can pick it up in a way that makes the most sense for you. the most efficient way economically and ecologically. >> it does ultimately have to be

delivered to someone's house. is that problematic? is that something we should be looking at? >> it totally depends on whether or not the customer would've made multiple stops on one trip or whether they would've just gone out to the bookstore and come back. it requires further study and it clearly does. you want to study what happens. meanwhile, i love the internet. i'm not against the internet. charles: you brought out a lot of interesting things. >> this is the lot lie hottest toy of the year. it is at toys "r" us. for $149 at, you can't beat it.

everybody is happy and very strong and durable. it has parental control. charles: what about the other things you have? >> you have a really cute anatomic warts. it is a fantastic toy and if we are not careful, it will dominate us. >> okay, we don't have a uber super either. fiscal cliff, before i let you go, consumers are starting to say that it sounds dangerous. how much pressure do you feel under washington getting their act together sooner rather than later? >> blasting the parents cut back on our holiday presents their kids. we went through 2008 and 2009

christmases and we still did fine. people still want to buy the hot toys for christmas. starting on black friday. charles: okay. we had a great discussion. you had a commercial and you proved that toys "r" us is still the place to be. we appreciate it. if you are worried about four more years of president obama, you could be worried about your privacy even me. this campaign could still cause you pain. we will talk about your personal information [ malannouncer ] it'that time of year again.

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charles: the car you drive, the price of your home, now, democrats are using to use the research to gain an edge in the

future elections. lenore hawkins says it's not just democrats that can take advantage of this information. so can the hackers. this is scary stuff. you know, i remember people used to complain about how much information the government had. but now, the different entities like the obama campaign, they have everything. >> absolutely. the reason we are talking about this, the information is power. our nation is built on the concept that government power ought to be controlled. if men were angels, no government would be necessary. if government were run by angels, no control on government could be necessary. government needs to exercise some kind of control. obama has created or wants to pass consumer privacy rights, which gives you control over what information is collected on you and how it's used. however, they are not going to be applying it to campaigns or the government.

so here we go. governments are not angels either. >> the convenient loophole there. i was reading so many millions and millions of people who made pledges and it will be looked at for updated. it's a large giant corporation and they end up with our information and creditt card numbers. >> we are told in response that we should trust that obama will not -- his campaign will not take advantage of this or misuse it. the whole group are a bunch of angels.

all kinds of campigns can participate. >> here is the other side of the coin that a lot of people are saying, they gave up. they gave up on the notion of privacy. general petraeus, it sort of underscores this. the idea that once you get on e internet and wats to give up information to anyone, that's it, you've lost it, there's no more privacy. get used to it. >> it's a reasonable way, but we need to fight back. we cannot allow the government to have this much power. we do not know what will be used with it. consumers need to be able to protect themselves from any other private entity. we can't just give up and say i've already put it out there. it's all over. >> on that note, how do we fight back?

the average person feels hopeless on their google search. >> assume that everything you do on the internet is public. but we cannot completely restrict what we do with it. it is an incredibly powerful tool. government needs to evolve with technology and develop these policies that will protect us, just like we have done in the off-line world. >> okay, so something being done by now, the rules are laid down for everyone else. what about the rest? >> there is no difference between people in a campaign and people in private industry and governnt. >> what is the likelihood of it

happening? >> i think we will get a lot of awareness built. this is one of the foundations of the united states with what was going on with britain of the violation of individual privacy where british soldiers could walk into a home of someone living in the united states. charles: the new york city mayor now has a real big problem. we have that coming up next want to try to crack it? yeah, that's the way to do it! now we need a little bit more... [ male announcer ] at humana, we understand the value of quality time and personal attention. which is why we are proud to partner with health care professionals

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charles: the twinkie is dead. long live the twinkie. the parent company, hostess, preceded with liquidation plans. some of those brands are being resurrected with being bought out by other companies. the headquarters now face massive job losses and future heads of tax revenue. the mayor of that town joins us now. thank you for taking the time to join us. 18,500 jobs -- i know a majority of those are going to hit your ci. how do you feel about that? >> the 18,500 jobs are across the country. a couple hundred of them are in irvine. obviously, we don't want that to happen. hostess is a great game and we are proud to have it in the city but the fact is you're going to have 18,500 people who are about

to lose their jobs in one of the worst economies that we've ever seen. right before the holidays. it is a travesty. >> it is a travesty. we think could have been done to avoid it? >> you know, union leaders really need to ce to the table and work with the business leaders. it is not an us against them. this is management and employees working together to move it forward. they need to be concentrating on what needs to be done in order to make this a successful company for everybody. nobody wants to lose their jobs, especially not now. charles: not to pile on, but obviously, if you can't make money selling twinkies, you have a problem. so management has made their his share of mistakes. but it seems like the unions played this game of chicken. is that an example of

desperation or are they feeling emboldened. >> it is their job to work with these people, and give these people employed. we all understand that people are going to pay a certain amount for twinkie. that's just how it happened. the cost is outside of the management content management control. we have to work within reality to create an environment in which the cost are going to be reasonable to make a twinkie.

the fact is that you have 18,500 people across the country that are getting ready to lose their jobs, and as much as we want to make them employed, the union leaders need to come and work in the management team. the executives are trying. charles: they will pay $3 per twinkie if you can find one. >> i have a 10 year old son and he will be devastated. i think there is hope out there. it is a well known name. then dunks, twinkies have been around. ifomeone scoops them up, this is something that you have to deal with on a local leel. is there any outrage there and management? are people going around the town in saying this is crazy? this is not? you guys blew it?

>> while we are obviously not happy that any company is going out of business, our city will be able to get by. but we see this firsthand as mayors of towns. when we go to the grocery store, we are filling up our tent at the gas station. they know who we are as leaders. we don't have the ability to be able to go up and finger-pointing. we don't have the luxury of playing politics or hiding behind political affiliations. we work with these people. these are community members. charles: the american dream is turning into a nightmare. it is a fork in the turkey of the economy with the spark cash card from capital one,

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charles: they are out of school but in a world of hurt. 63% of recent college graduates saying that thamerican dream is dead. they can't find jobs and they don't think they're going to do better than their parents. our panel is back. tina, it is an awful indictment on the country when you don't think you'll do better than their parents. that has always been a hallmark of america. >> obviously i am a illennial.

be better than your parents. 63% of ccllege graduates say the american dream is dead, then it is dead. something that i am fond of repeating is that at the heart of the american dream is not prosperity, but it's freedom. that's what troubles me about my generation. the word freedom doesn't resonate with us the way that i wish it did. i read a pew study that said 49% of millenniums think favorably of the term socialism and 46% socialism and just 46% wit capitalism. education needs to go one to wickes blamed to anybody in it's frightening. it's really shocking. you know, we just heard mitt romney say that the young people

out there -- freedom wasn't in the survey. >> i guess i'm a century and if the gift is. >> if she is the millennial tina is a millennial. this is the land of opportunity not handouts. it is a land of handouts not to get political but the more you handout the more constituency you build. people who are looking for opportunity have nowhere to go. >> have we gone past the tipping point*? to people not remember the same country? >> i don't think so. for a simple reason. charles krauthammer pointed this before we get to that point*, our economy will

we are looking at. >> i don't know what you think these people read into this question, but i assure you that they were not thinking about all these things you guys are all talking about. the american dream to someone in their 20s is owning a house, watch and pension. >> i don't think so. >> the dream is dead. >> is dropout nation. kids not getting married those are all part of dream. [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> what is it replacing? >> the original american dream before we were sold on having a house and a gold watch, people came to this country for freedom. it was to make money.

people in their teens are starting venture capital business. the guy from facebook is in his 20s. there has never been a time. >> but i have to tell you i know people want stuff. with a great trappings of wealth looking at the sba loans it is vanishing. never been a better time to invest capital in the united states. but when i work with my peers, i

see more about what that poll is, this idea that if it is there, they will kind of take what is given to them and you read students that have student them. spending money on tattoos i agree we are becoming more of a nation of tat -- takers what is sad s that there is a correlation between current success and happiness. in the end, the best way to get to that is -- [talking over each other] [talking over each other] >> you a too quick to dismiss it. it'll still want freedom. that wasn't just a side angle. eople have always come here wanting to be their own boss. it does tie in to what you were saying, but it's more than just a catch. a lot of times you're talking about a business and it's the freedom not to have a boss that people love. boss.